The Career Conversation Every Parent Should Have First (Degree Free #208)

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:00]:
Welcome back everyone. Today we are going deep on this report article, however you want to call it. Future Ed's report, Future Shock: The Crisis in Career Navigation. The headline really, I mean, just our take on it. And it was just like, kids graduate with no idea what's next and counselors can't fix it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:21]:
Shocking. We're shocked.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:22]:
Yeah. So this is gonna be really important for all parents whose children are still in high school, and it might give a good postmortem for those that have children that are in the 18 to 20-year-old, in the young adult range of, you know, how we got here.

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:40]:
As I read through this, I was thinking about this dad the other day. His son's 20, and I had been on a call with them about the Launch Program, and he said, yeah, you know what? I think we're gonna, I think we're gonna hold off. Um, he's gonna go talk to his high school counselors. And I didn't say anything. I probably should have and just been like, because it went so well the first time. And then also what I knew, I didn't know it was this bad, but I also know that those counselors, the ratio of kids to counselors is insane. It's hundreds of kids to one counselor and they don't know really much about careers and they don't have the resources for that. And they're busy dealing with kids who are like abused and in crisis.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:19]:
And so. I don't really see how they're gonna be able to help a, and I know for a fact they're not gonna be able to help a 20-year-old kid who graduated 2 years ago find like career direction all of a sudden. Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:30]:
It was one of those things when you told me about that call that I wanted to go back in time, reach through the phone and like kind of shake the dad and be like, what are—

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:39]:
How, why would that help?

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:40]:
What are, yeah, exactly. What are you talking about?

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:42]:
Yeah. I didn't wanna be rude and also I believe that they're They're going to figure that out on their— I definitely believe that they're going to figure that out very quickly on their own, because I can't imagine that that would be super illuminating. I just don't see how they're going to be able to reverse engineer, what do you need from your work? What careers are going to fit that, that are here, that are in the location that you want to live? What do you actually need to do to get them? You don't have to do this, this, and this. You can just do this. And oh, this is how you're going to do it. They're not going to be able to do that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:08]:
I agree with literally all of that. But for me, it goes to the point that you said, which is why Would you go back to, to the people of which 2 years ago were not able to give good advice, of which landed him in the situation that he is in now? Once again, I'm not, I'm not laying it all at the guidance counselor's feet. That's not what I'm doing. But what I'm saying is that these people, obviously he's stuck. That's why you're on the phone with us. People come to us. from all walks of life and for different reasons. People, we wish, as we've said many, many times before, we wish that most people came to us before anything happens.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:52]:
Right. And so like, we wish that we had 16, 17-year-olds, 18-year-olds come. And so like, if you are a parent listening to this right now and you're like, oh yeah, like I'm gonna, I'll get this for my child eventually. I'm gonna get them a clear plan eventually. And then, you know, but oh, now's not the right time. 6 months from now, I'll do it a year from now. What ends up happening as somebody who we've seen this literally hundreds and hundreds of times is in that 6 months to a year, they try a few things. A portion of them end up being like, yep, that's it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:03:28]:
We're doing that. A good number of them don't figure it out. They end up getting more discouraged. And now we've wasted all of that time.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:36]:
The kid feels super discouraged.

Ryan Maruyama [00:03:38]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:38]:
The time may not be wasted, but the damage is done to them. They feel bad. Like they do.

Ryan Maruyama [00:03:42]:
A good use of time in that now they know they don't want to do that thing. Absolutely. That said, they're more discouraged. It's 6 months to a year later. And that is usually when they come back to the Launch Program, they come back to us and then they say, hey, we did that. It's obviously not working and therefore let's sign up. But now the child comes into it more discouraged because they just tried and they're like, ah, I don't know if this is going to work. I don't know if anything's going to work.

Ryan Maruyama [00:04:11]:
And we have to help course correct all of that. Whereas I would rather it be the exact opposite. You don't feel any of this pain. This reminds me of like myself. I have a very difficult time learning from other people's mistakes. Like I have a very, very difficult time.

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:27]:
I think a lot of people have that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:04:28]:
I read a ton of books. I have read literally so many books, especially on business, how to manage business, how to manage money, how to run teams, how to build culture. I've read so, so many books. Almost everything that, almost all of the things in those books are like, okay, so I spent 10 years of my life going down this path and then—

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:53]:
To give you this lesson.

Ryan Maruyama [00:04:53]:
And then to get to, to wrap up this whole thing for you in 250 pages for $30 if you're buying the hardback, you know, and I buy it and I'm like, okay, awesome.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:06]:
And then I'm gonna not do that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:08]:
And then I literally go ahead and spend 3 years doing the exact same thing that I spent a week of my life reading, $30—

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:17]:
To try to avoid.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:19]:
To try to avoid. And then I'm like, Oh.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:22]:
Huh.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:22]:
Oh, this guy was onto something.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:24]:
The predictable result of my own actions.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:26]:
Yeah. This guy, this guy knew what was going on.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:29]:
What a thinker.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:30]:
And so I totally get it why so many parents and, uh, so many young adults, they, they wanna do that. This is one of those things that I wish that I could tell all parents in a 16, 17, 18-year-old before you experience the pain, Just sign up.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:48]:
Just plan.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:49]:
Just sign up and plan. Yes. Does it cost a lot of money? Sure. Is it worth the time that they would save and the way that they will feel when they hit those failures along the road?

Hannah Maruyama [00:06:02]:
Because there was not a clear goal.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:03]:
Exactly. Probably. And that's just, I wish that I could learn from other people's mistakes more.

Hannah Maruyama [00:06:12]:
I will confidently say that young adults who come into the Launch Program before they are 18 years old, before they've gone and done college and left or what have you, they do save time. They do save money because they do not do things that they were going to do without a clear goal. And because of that, they do save time and they do save money. And that is something that I feel very strongly that our culture— it's so weird. I feel like our culture plans everything else, but people even will college plan. They will spend a ton of money. on ACT, SAT prep and college tutoring and all of these things to FAFSA coaches, college admissions counselors, but they will not plan career. It's insane.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:55]:
And especially considering that all of that is supposed to be in service, in service of getting the career, but you're, but you're not willing to spend the money and you're not willing to spend the time to do the thing that is literally the thing that they're trying to be in service of.

Hannah Maruyama [00:07:09]:
It should come before.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:10]:
Telling them why even study for the ACT? Why even study for the SAT?

Hannah Maruyama [00:07:16]:
Unless you You need to do it in order to achieve your goals. And this is something that I feel like more incensed about, not at people in general, but just as a culture. Like, why? And, and the answer we both know is because it's all of this pressure to just shove them right past all the other avenues. We just go to college for it. That's crazy. It's literally crazy. It's obviously not working. And the thing for me that really makes me upset is I always get the fallout.

Hannah Maruyama [00:07:40]:
Like, I get the fallout. I get the message. I see the messages. My kid's 27, no direction, back at home. My kid's 24, back at home, mechanical engineering degree, nothing to do. My daughter's back at home, nursing degree, 25 years old, doesn't want to go into nursing, hated it. Now what do I do? I hate to see that. I hate to see it because I'm, I look at that and I just go, with literally 4 weeks of planning, you could have avoided this.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:02]:
It reminds me, I was talking to a parent. We have temporarily expanded the age range that we work with. We don't really advertise it. But we've expanded it. So if you're, if you have a child that is a little bit older outside of the 16 to 20-year-old range, we've expanded it to 21 to 24 as well for a very limited time. So if that's your child, sign them up now because we're not sure if it's going to happen or not. But it reminds me of a conversation that I was having with a parent of a 23-year-old and, you know, waffling on whether or not to sign up. Long story short, they didn't end up signing up.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:41]:
With the conversation that we had, and everything that they told us and all the language that we, that we've, that they were saying and that we've spoken about, they tried a ton of stuff already. They've tried a ton of stuff. What else is there to talk about? She hates her job. She's in a long-term job, like in a long-term job.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:02]:
Yeah, she has a job she's working.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:03]:
Not lazy.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:04]:
Not at all.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:05]:
On time, hard worker, hates it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:08]:
Wrong vehicle.

Ryan Maruyama [00:09:09]:
Wrong vehicle. Doesn't know where to put her efforts. Literally doesn't know where to put her efforts. An adult for 5 years, an adult for 5 years, still doesn't know where to put her effort.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:21]:
And that's the result of bad, like the transition out of high school was not well planned. And that's the thing that I really just wish, I wish there was more weight on that, not college. The transition out of high school, the launching of their life. And that's why, I mean, that's why we called it the Launch Program because it's very much designed to take them from, I'm a kid, I've been focused on school, to I'm now looking for the career I'm going to pursue and the skills that I will need to build and the licenses I will have to get and the certifications I will need to get in order to start that career. And then the steps to then start looking for that career and begin to start it. That is what's missing. And the thing is too, people spend more money and more time on college prep that is going to get half of their kids— half of their kids are not going to graduate. So all these kids spending all this time on that, half of them are not going to graduate.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:16]:
And only 22% of them are going to work in their field of study, which means that you can only give me a fraction of a fraction argument that the degree was even required at all. And for many of them, again, it's going to take them way longer than 4 years to graduate, 6 years on average. And they're not even going to like the job that they're in. And it's because there was a lack of planning and we just breezed right past the career and right into college. And it's like, college is secondary if you're going to do that because of the time and cost right now. And anyone who's debating that is just not rational. I just saw this clip of this guy that was like, yeah, you know, ASU is rolling out a social media influencer degree. He's like, and now I have a rebuttal when kids say that I want to be an influencer.

Hannah Maruyama [00:10:53]:
And it's like, well, you got to go to college to learn that. And I'm like, wow, buddy, way to take the complete wrong takeaway from that. It's that colleges will sell you anything. And he's like, and he maintained that, you know, the education is priceless. I'm like, it's not. ASU guarantee has a price tag on that social media influencer degree. But I think, and it was interesting in this report actually that we were talking about at the beginning, they talk about how, and this is something you and I know about vocational creativity, in this Future Shock report about the crisis in career navigation, they talk about the fact that a ton of young adults want to be influencers, but a ton of young adults want to be influencers, not because they're vain. Not because they're envious, not because it's like a, you know, not for any like fame reason.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:34]:
A lot of them want to do it because they see it in the same way that a lot of them wanted to be teachers because they saw a lot of teachers. When a lot of marine biology was in the media, in the movies, in the Disney movies and stuff, a lot of them wanted to be marine biologists. It's just how it is. Then I saw an interesting theory that their career identity is formed around 5 or 6, which I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. I think that's a little bit crazy actually. Um, and I'm not really sure what that's based on, so I'm not, I'm not confident that that's true. But you and I do believe that the earlier you start vocational creativity, the better off your kid's gonna be. Because you, when you talk to young children and when they see, they see and observe things in the world, you say, oh wow.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:15]:
Oh yeah.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:15]:
You see that 5G tower?

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:16]:
Yeah.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:16]:
Do you see the ladder up there? Did you know that somebody climbs up and works on that tower because somebody's gotta You know, and then they say, oh, why? And you say, oh, well, because somebody has to fix the thing at the top, or they might have to change the light so that the helicopters see it. But there's so many opportunities with your kids to just point out work being done and then point out that there's somebody behind that work so that you can stretch that muscle. But it's very obvious that our school system doesn't do that. And the people in it are not well equipped to do it either.

Ryan Maruyama [00:12:44]:
It's not a hard rule and it does, it's not 100% of the time. But largely speaking, the more vocationally creative at a younger age your child is, the less you'll need our services in the future because they know that they can do— not even that they can do it. They'll just be, they'll just be aware of all of the jobs that are out there and therefore they will have options. Options is still not a plan, but largely if they at least know their options, they don't feel as boxed in and then have to go down this cookie-cutter path.

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:23]:
One thing I do want to talk about too is I think a lot of times when parents talk about their kids' options, they don't actually mean career options. What they mean is, oh, they could go to college or they could go to trade school or they could go to the military. They are already, when they talk about, oh, my child does know their options or wants to know their options, a lot of the time they're talking about the way in which they will get to the option they're talking about. They don't even mean the actual career options that are open to them. That's something I have noticed. Before, when I'll listen to parents, they'll say, oh yeah, I know. I just want them to know their options. Like they could go to trade school or they could do this, or they could do that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:53]:
What they don't talk about is what their career options would be. They talk about their training options or their educational options or their college options. They don't talk about the actual career options. And that's something I've noticed recently. And I think that a lot of parents are under the misconception that because their child understands that they could go into the military or college or trade school or what have you, that they also understand the careers on the other side of that. That is not the case. Your kids do not know what careers are out there in the same way that you probably don't know many careers that are out there. Only 13%, this was in the report, but only 13% of Gen Z teenagers feel prepared to choose a career path.

Hannah Maruyama [00:14:31]:
They don't know what's out there. And a lot of them, I think, prepared to choose a career path means, oh, I'm going to college because I'm going to be a doctor. And also, if you prod any teenager who says they're going to go to be a doctor in the slightest way, what you'll uncover is that most of them actually just want to go play some college sport. and doctor is the thing that like parents are like, oh wow, that's so good.

Ryan Maruyama [00:14:51]:
Okay. I'll push back on that a little bit because it's not like, not necessarily play a college sport. That is just what we've seen. That, I think that's a minority case of what we've seen.

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:01]:
I don't think so.

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:02]:
What it is, what it really is, is that they still don't know, like really truthfully. I mean, we've seen this hundreds and hundreds of times when we ask, Oh, what are you planning? Oh, well, they're planning on being a doctor. So this isn't really forced. Oh yeah. Awesome. Great. And then we ask them just a couple of follow-up questions. Like what kind of medicine? Why are you doing this? Literally 2.

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:31]:
What is your plan? 3. No idea.

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:35]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:35]:
Blank. No idea. What are we doing? Why are we doing this? Literally, why are we doing this?

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:41]:
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:42]:
And they don't know. And it's, and a lot of it, I believe, yes, that we have had a lot of people talk about the college sports. And I think that it's a recency bias for you, but for doctors in general, it is not just sports because not everybody plays sports, but it is that, that was, it goes down to vocational creativity is because that's what's in front of them. That's what they think is the right thing to do. And I mean, chances are they're probably not gonna be a doctor. I mean, like the statistics say, they're not gonna be a doctor.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:13]:
Well, I say that because I've seen this trope play itself out. It does even have gender breakdown where you, if you have a son and he has a high GPA and he plays any kind of sports that he's relatively good at, then they are absolutely, it's gonna be doctor or engineer. And usually it's gonna be doctor because they don't actually have to deal with the reality of that career path until they go to undergrad. And so they say that, and then they go on some partial scholarship to go play whatever sport that is. This is very much a thing that has happened over and over again. And then they're going to go play some varsity, they're going to go play some collegiate sport. And it's like, oh, well, you know, they just want to do that for a few more years. And it's like, okay, that's a lot of money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:50]:
And then you're also going to have to pay for med school. And that's not factored into the decision. If it's a girl and she's got a high GPA or high test scores, and like, you know, if she plays a sport especially, And she has the slightest bit of interest in anything to do with English, it's law. Because that's the, oh wow, like, you know, wow, what a prestigious major you're going to be choosing. Again, because they don't have to deal with the reality of that until after undergrad. So now it's partial athletic scholarship, go to some school that's probably just barely on what the parents can afford, and then we're going to deal with law school after because, wow, she's going to go be a lawyer. That is absolutely something that happens. I've seen that play out multiple times, multiple times.

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:28]:
Actually just saw a lady the other day. Talking about on social media, she's got 4 kids. She said that she just paid, you know, $100,000 for her son's college tuition. Literally exactly that ex— that exact thing has just played out. Oh, you know, I got a 4.2 GPA, cuz now they don't do 4.0 GPAs, it's 5.0 GPAs. Uh, so he is like, I've got a 4.2, here's my test score. Like I went to, you know, um, he's at, uh, where is he at? Duke or something like that. And it's, it's that exact, that exact, I'm gonna go be a doctor.

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:55]:
It's like, okay, well we'll see how you do in undergrad and then we'll see how you, again, this really just fuel, and I say this not to be like rude or insulting to the kids or the parents even. It's just because this is the conveyor belt that they get put on. This usually happens because a ton of kids plan to go and become doctors and then they don't, is that then undergrad doesn't go how they thought, or they just don't like, they don't like school that much. And then they end up like, oh, well, I guess I'll just go do whatever. And now they have a biology degree that they don't use and they graduate and then they go into something that's completely unrelated. Like that's how this plays out.

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:26]:
I did want to get back to the counselors and I didn't want to get back to high school. And so there's a quote unquote recommended counselor to student ratio, and it's 1 counselor to 250 students. And then there are only 4 states that have that. It's Hawaii, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Colorado. Everywhere else doesn't meet that standard. But for that, if you think about it, okay, so 1 counselor for 250, that's a lot. But then also you gotta think now, what is the guidance counselor? What is their job and what are all the different aspects of their job? And they are really part social work, part career counselor, part college advisor.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:17]:
I mean— I'd say they're more college advisor than they are career counselor, but yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:21]:
But I'm saying like that, those are Mm-hmm. Those are the jobs that they're supposed to be doing.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:27]:
Most of their job now I think is social work, like mental health type, type stuff.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:31]:
Yeah. Well, I think the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Yeah. So I mean, that makes sense.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:36]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:36]:
Right.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:37]:
Like, well, physical health and life and death is always gonna take priority over like correct career fit as it should. You know?

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:42]:
Right, right, exactly. Yeah, totally. And so, yeah, I don't mean that in a derogatory way or anything like that. I'm just simply like, necessary. Yeah. Necessary.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:47]:
But yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:48]:
Hello. It's prioritization.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:49]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:19:49]:
And so. To have these people expect to be really great at knowing what careers are out there, how to get your child into, into the right career, how to help them find their path, how to make them an actionable plan to get everything that they want in life. I mean, that's a tall order. That's a tall order. 250 kids, 250 young adults. To one. And then of that, they have 3 jobs. They probably have more.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:23]:
They probably wear at least 10 hats. I would say that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:24]:
The chances, the chances that they're getting great advice, the chances that they're getting awesome tailored advice for them and for their future so that they can reach their goals, close to zero. I mean, close to zero.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:37]:
I want to point out to parents that if you are having a hard time guiding your child to the correct career path, it is very unlikely that someone who is in charge of at least 250 other kids, all who have different needs, different goals, different criteria for the life that they do want. It is impossible for this individual to accurately, and we'll talk about the actual ratio, but it's impossible for this person to successfully do that. They just don't have the, they don't have the tools. They don't have the mental space. They literally don't. There's not enough time in the day for that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:13]:
And they have 250 kids they have to worry about. You only have 2.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:15]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:16]:
And you're like, chances are, I mean, like statistics say that you only have 2 I mean, if you listen to this podcast, I'm gonna go on a limb and say the average parent listener of this podcast, 4, probably not. I wouldn't say 4 cuz that's way above the, the, that's double the national average. But I would probably say that you have 3.2. Yeah. I would say you'd have 3 kids. Yeah. 2 point something, 2.8 or something like that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:36]:
Sure.

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:36]:
So about 3 kids.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:38]:
That's a very tall order to expect for them to be able to successfully do that. And so the data apparently is actually showing that the average is 372 students per counselor because our country has 27,000 high schools. And so that's what we're looking at here. That's your ratio. It's one counselor who's supposed to handle that to 372 students. Impossible for them to help your child find the right answer down to the zip code specificity where your child is using all available resources for them. That is literally why we designed the Launch Program, because we believe that the only way to successfully solve this problem is on an individual level with one person who is focused on that child. We actually cap the amount of clients that any given career strategist can work with because of this exact reason.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:26]:
We have also found, but at a much lower threshold, that to do the appropriate legwork and the actual research that needs to get done for each individual student is very difficult and very time-consuming, and you cannot do it for more than a certain amount at a time. It's just not, uh, you don't get good results when you do that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:42]:
I wanted to go back a little bit and talk about what you were talking about with ASU creating the content creator, whatever program. What are the chances that getting a degree in this is going to lead them, like these attendees, these people that purchase this degree, what is going to, what are the chances that they're going to be successful content creators? It reminds me of a conversation that I had with somebody that is 17 years old right now, uh, personally in my life, not having anything to do with work, but they know what we do. We have a podcast. We, we have, uh, you know, 700,000+ followers on all our, all of our social media accounts, et cetera. And so we are the most successful quote unquote content creators, even though we're not content creators that he knows. And so he called me. And he was like, hey, I want to become a content creator. What do I, what do I do? So I will say the same thing that I, like, I'll say here, like all your children have to do instead of paying ASU anything, they can get it for free right here.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:49]:
Please don't pay ASU anything. Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:51]:
Like you don't have to pay ASU anything. Save all that money and buy them, instead of that, buy them a nice phone and then like a $100 microphone. And then that's, that's it. record on their phone and a microphone, and that's enough to get started. And you can save $100,000 and 4 years of their life, 5 and a half years of their life. And all the alcohol poisoning risk that they would get at ASU. And so—

Hannah Maruyama [00:24:15]:
Apparently I actually did read that Gen Z is not drinking as much as previous generations. So you're not far off on that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:20]:
Yeah, because the world is healing. Everything is— That's one perspective. Grow up and have an alcohol problem just like the rest of the world.

Hannah Maruyama [00:24:29]:
Oh my goodness. You heard it on Degree Reverse.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:32]:
Yeah. And so what I told him was basically, I mean, it was literally one word, post. That was it. That's it. Post. And I ended up asking him his goals, right? Like, why do you want to do this? Like, do you, is it, is it in pursuit of money? Is it in pursuit of notoriety? Is it in pursuit of learning a skill? And he answered, it was very definitive what he answered. He said, I wanna make money with this.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:02]:
Okay.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:02]:
I was like, okay, good.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:04]:
Clear goal.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:04]:
That's, that's very clear because if it was learning how to, like, if it was a skill, for example, like let's just walk that path for a second. It would've been a little bit different because it might have been like, what type of skill is it that you want to work on? Your videography skills or your editing, your editing skills, sound design. Exactly. Is it what, what? is it of those skills that you would like to work on? If it's being famous, like, okay, that's, that, that is a, that is a reason. But then to what end is what I would've asked then.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:35]:
For why?

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:35]:
Yeah. For what reason is it? And then it probably would've ended up being income to make money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:41]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:41]:
Right. Because Naval Ravikant or something like that, one of these thinkers or tech guys, tech bro dudes. And, uh, that was like, uh, everybody that wants to be, uh, rich and famous, like, why don't you just try being rich first and see if that settles it?

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:58]:
See if that, then decide if you wanna be famous.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:00]:
Right. Then, then decide if you wanna be famous. And so for him, it was clear, didn't lose a beat, just wants to make money. Mm-hmm. Perfect. Awesome. If that's the case, and I was like, okay, so how do you wanna monetize it? Was, was my next question. Do you wanna monetize it by, by creating a company and Like creating a service.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:19]:
He knows what we do. So I was like, do you wanna do it by creating a service or, uh, creating a product of something and selling that to people? Or do you, or do you want to sell advertisement? He was like, oh yeah, I don't wanna really run, run a company. Or at least, I mean, obviously if you sell ads, you are a company, but, and your inventory is just ad space. But he was like, oh, I don't wanna do that. I just wanna sell advertisement.

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:43]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:44]:
I just wanna get, get, get a lot of viewers, sell ad space, be an influencer, like through and through, just an influencer.

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:52]:
Sure.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:52]:
And I was like, okay, that's a very, that's a very clear goal. I was like, now that we have that goal, it's one word, post. Mm-hmm. That's it. Literally, that's it. And I was like, because your end goal of getting advertisers, he's 17 years old. I kind of had to hold his hand through this whole thing cuz he's, you know, He doesn't know yet. Yeah, he doesn't know yet.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:13]:
He's gotta learn.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:13]:
And so what are these advertisers going to pay you to do? And he was like, make videos.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:21]:
About what?

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:22]:
Advertise their product. Tell people about it. I was like, no, they're not gonna pay you to do any of that. Yes, some of it, kind of. The main thing that they're gonna pay you to do is to post. That's it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:35]:
That's the action.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:36]:
At the end of it, that's it. You just saved 5 and a half years and $100,000. That's it. Post content.

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:44]:
Do you think he's going to have to learn the way you learn, which is 3 years from now?

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:48]:
Oh, 100%. Oh, that's such a good question, dude. Okay. So that's such a good question because—

Hannah Maruyama [00:27:54]:
Do you think he listened to you?

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:55]:
Oh, I already know the answer. I haven't talked to— I had this conversation about 3 weeks ago. I love him very much. And he, so, uh, he was worried about all of his gear. He was worried about all the wrong things. Right. And so He was asking me like, okay, what kind of camera?

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:08]:
This looks familiar.

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:09]:
Yeah, right. This is me, people. And so, and when other people have told me before, don't worry about any of the gear. And then I went and I was like, what kind of camera should I get? And literally, this is me 10 years ago. And so he's actually ahead of me because he's 17 and I was in my early 20s, you know, and I was figuring it out still. So he's still ahead of the curve on me. And so he was like, oh, you know, what type of camera should I get? What type of microphone should I get? I was like, dude, it doesn't matter. Like, you're talking on the thing that you are going to make videos on.

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:44]:
It is better than any camera that you can afford at this point. You're 17 years old. Like, your mom bought you this camera. You know, that's probably like an $800 camera, whatever it is. It's like, she bought you this camera, use it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:56]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:56]:
It has the best camera that you're ever gonna have. It's better than the one, like I gave him one of our old cameras because we have all the gear now. He was like, okay, asking about other things. And I was like, dude, stop, stop. I did say the only thing that really mattered was a mic because especially with the type of content that he wants to make, which is talking head, he wanted to make fitness content. So talking head, possibly fitness content. I mean, obviously he has to have like a, I gave him other advice, you know, you gotta find a take, you have to have an angle, all of that stuff. But the main thing is like, you just gotta post.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:28]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:28]:
Right, at the end of the day. And that'll help you find how you're gonna— Exactly. Do all that stuff. Exactly.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:32]:
100%.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:32]:
And so at least he has a niche, right? He has a niche that he wants to go into, which is the fitness niche. But then within fitness, I mean, one, it's such a convoluted area. And also it's very crowded. There's so much competition in it. And so, but you know, it is what it is. Just do something, post. I ended up buying him a microphone too. I actually have to send it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:54]:
It came here. It came here. I have to send it. to him. This is 3 weeks ago. I told him by the time that he receives the mic, he shouldn't wait on the microphone. Don't wait. Don't wait on it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:05]:
Post content. I haven't spoken to him yet. I will, I'll call him when I send it, probably today or tomorrow or the next day. And I am betting, I'll check in next week, next time with you guys. I am betting that he did not post yet.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:22]:
We'll see.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:23]:
And literally because of everything that you just said and everything that I said at the beginning of this is like, He has to go through these mistakes himself, right? Like how easy would it be to just like listen to somebody who's been there and done it, right? Like how easy would your life be if somebody said like jump and you just trust that person that like, that you're supposed to jump and you just jump?

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:47]:
People just have to learn for themselves all the time, which is, which is kind of what we're talking about with, you know, a lot of these parents.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:53]:
It's unfortunate though. Like what I will say like about the Launch Program stuff, What I will say that is unfortunate is that for him, like, okay, it is the same. It is the same time and stuff that he's still wasting or, you know, not wasting. It's, it's, it's a learning experience and sure. And for your child is the same thing. But I know that for so many parents, it is the thing that you want the most. And it's the thing that you cherish the most in life is your child's future. And you just want them, you want them to be okay.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:21]:
You want to know that they're gonna be okay.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:23]:
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:24]:
And it gets kicked down. the line 6 months, a year, you know, it's difficult. And I think as a parent, I know because we've had this conversation a year later, 6 months later, it's tough.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:36]:
It's really hard to untangle it the longer you wait. It's, it's, it's more, it is more difficult. Uh, when, which is kind of why for a long time we limited, you know, we did limit that over 21, cause it's really, it's really tough to untangle that stuff. The things that haven't worked out versus what they want. And it is very, it can be very difficult to fix that. This is so off topic, but apropos of nothing, I remember this comment from a few weeks ago when I saw that ASU post about the influencer degree. I had a flashback, I had a war flashback to a comment where every time I talk about the fact that you don't need to buy a degree to do anything in marketing, it's amazing how people come out of the woodwork to fling a bunch of MBA nonsense at me. Um, when I've been a marketer for years and they proceed to say, but what about, and then this comment was the funniest.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:28]:
It was, but what about all of these? And they just threw out a bunch of, um, flashbang whizbang acronyms for ad spend, like CPM. And, and I was like, you realize that the person who created the pixel, which is the largest market share of ad spend, didn't have a college degree, right? Like, you know that, right? And they don't, of course they don't know that, but it's just funny how this is such an example of the colleges will sell you anything. I can't wait until 5 years from now when we have students who are enrolled in ASU's marketing influencer marketing program, social media marketing program, come in our comments and tell me how I don't know anything about anything. I'm really looking forward to that. I'll, I'll, I'll see it when it happens. And yeah, exciting stuff.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:12]:
There was a thing a few months ago. I didn't watch it, but I saw clips. It was Streamers University or something like that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:22]:
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:23]:
I obviously, I didn't watch it. I don't know what it is, but I did see clips of this streamer and I didn't really know who it was, but I guess his name is Ludwig and he was running a class and it was basically, I think it was like the second one they were putting on and he was running a class and it was basically saying like, these people are all streamers, right? These people are all streamers. This is what I got. Like I said, I'm probably the worst person to to give this because I don't know what I'm talking about, but this is what I got from the context of, of the clips of that that I've seen, 'cause I saw a few. And I think these, all these people are streamers and they're in this thing called the Streamers U. And he was basically just talking about, he was giving a university-style class, that's the university in quotes, about how to be a streamer, about how to monetize it, about how to, you know, do it full-time.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:08]:
Useful.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:08]:
Right. It's more probably—

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:10]:
Especially from someone who actually makes money doing it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:11]:
Right, exactly. In the thing, he literally breaks down his economics.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:14]:
This is how the future looks.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:15]:
I forget, I forget what it was, but it was like, I think he had a Team of 15. I think all of his expenses for payroll, et cetera, was like $400 grand or something like that a month. A month.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:24]:
A month.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:25]:
And then he made like $1 point something million in top line. And, uh, you know, so it's a legitimate business.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:32]:
Wow. You know, that's really eye-opening for those kids to see though. That's really cool. That's really cool for him to show, to show that and teach in that way. That, that's how the future should look.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:40]:
The point of it was, was I think they kept stats on the people that came to the last years. I think it was the first one and it was basically like abysmal. I think it doesn't really matter because it's a content play for them putting it on.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:54]:
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:54]:
And so it just makes money. The thing in and of itself makes money. And if they can get one of these people to, you know, hopefully get a good outcome, that's great. I mean, like, that's great, but the event itself is a profit center because it makes money. And so I think that that's largely why they continue to hold it, even though the outcome itself is not great, but it was just, it was eye-opening. It was well less than half of the people that went to the last year's one had made the same amount or more money. More than half of them made less money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:31]:
Honestly, what's interesting is that that's actually better than the majority of content creators. So. Because it's something like 79% of them make like less than $50,000 a year or something like that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:35:42]:
I'm not sure. I, maybe they got into numbers. This is all in memory. I'm not sure of what the numbers were in that clip, but I do remember that it was less than whatever they were making before. And so it's tough. It's tough. And if that just shows you like, it's always moving, it's always changing and sitting in a college classroom. where they had to crystallize the information to them at the start of the semester is probably not it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:11]:
I have a theory about why they did that, about why they did that. One, it's probably to pick up the few, you know, there's probably like 10 kids whose parents can afford to burn that money and the kid's like, I want to do this and this is what I'm going to do. And the parent's like, fine, you can go to college and do it then. I think that there's like, that's maybe, you know, 20% of the reason. But yeah, basically it's a self-licking ice cream cone. They're just going to have those kids. They're going to sell those kids degrees. They're going to sell them paper.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:33]:
for social media influencing, and they're just gonna have 'em walk around ASU campus and try to sell other kids paper. That's, that's what I think they did it for.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:40]:
That's a very good point. I, I'm not sure if that's the reason why they did it. I think you're give— I think you're being very generous. I think you're being very generous in the amount of forethought that got put into the creation of that, of that program.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:55]:
You know what? You're right.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:56]:
But like, because you're thinking of second order effects there.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:59]:
Right.

Ryan Maruyama [00:36:59]:
And I'm not, I'm not trying to take that away from, uh, from the people that created this program at ASU. If that is the case, bravo. Like, that is brilliant. That is very, very smart. I think it was simpler than that in just that, hey, what do people say they want? They say they wanna be content creators. Let's create a program that says, I will give you a rubber stamp to make you a content creator. And here's everything that you should quote unquote know. I think that's literally it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:37:29]:
I think it was really just, if that's the case, it's even better business, but I think it was just good business on their part of just seeing, hey, the trend is going where everybody wants to be content creators. Everybody wants to be an influencer of some sort, and therefore we should fill that demand. And if nobody else is doing it, all of that demand is going to come to us. And that's brilliant. And that in and of itself is brilliant, but to make it— Oh, I see. But to say, to your point, if they thought of that as well, because to have thought about what you're saying, they would've had to thought about what I'm saying.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:03]:
Yeah. Probably giving them more business savvy credit than they actually need. Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:06]:
If they thought about the second-order effect of it, that is—

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:09]:
That would be very smart.

Ryan Maruyama [00:38:10]:
Very, very smart. It's already very smart, but it'd be very, very smart.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:14]:
Okay. I think to kind of go back, this has been kind of a windy episode, but to kind of go back to the future shock, the crisis in career navigation, I think the real takeaways here that I thought were really interesting out of this study was that There are 1.8 million credentials from over 134,000 providers. And it seems like a lot of people are really focused on this. I know that through the years, like I've been in private Slack groups, like the Future of Higher Education, the Future of, uh, Future of Work, Future of Work Preparedness, all these different, there's like nonprofits and policymakers and people that are in higher ed, like in quotes, in those groups. And they have these coffee hours and they like, you know, we talk about like policy and stuff like that. It's, they're all trying to figure out how to figure out which credentials are valuable. They will never be able to figure that out because people buy credentials the way that they buy college degrees. And that is with the hope that they will be able to apply it to something versus the way that you should do it, which is I have chosen this career.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:12]:
This career requires XYZ certification credential. I will now go get XYZ. Very few people do it that way. Most people buy these credentials hoping that they can find somewhere to apply it because that's the way they've been taught to buy educational products, career planning products. It is a fruitless endeavor. There's actually a project that the government commissioned. There's a grant, there's a grant competition that the government's throwing like $4 million at anybody who can connect these things. They're never going to be able to do it because of the way in which people buy credentials, buy certifications before they know why.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:43]:
Yeah. It's a fool's errand, really.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:45]:
Well, if you think about it, we teach people K through 12, like you buy paper and then you go try to find something thing to apply it to. No, it's backwards. You guys are doing this backwards. You will never be able to figure this out. You're never, and there's never going to be a way to measure which certifications are worth it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:59]:
Well, you can backdate from a statistics perspective, from an analytics perspective. Sure. I mean, you can, that's there as long as you can get the funding to do the surveys or even more intensive research practices, you could. do studies and backdate it towards sorts of things and say, well, this credential equals this outcome, or at least is highly correlated with this economic outcome, depending on whatever factors they ended up studying. None of that tracks back to whether or not your child should do that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:38]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:39]:
And that is the problem.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:41]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:42]:
That's the problem.

Hannah Maruyama [00:40:43]:
It's the same thing with college, just because on average, this, it's like, it's so, the way that the stats are calculated is so deceptive. And also like, if you take out people who are going to go on and get professional degrees for things that legally require degrees that maybe will make them higher earners, it's just like the complete, the picture completely changed. It's never going to be accurate if you go that way. The only way you can do it is you have to start from the beginning, which is what do they need? What careers fit that? What do those careers require? And people are starting from the credential again, because they're so used to starting from the degree. They're so used to starting from the how, and it's like, no, you start with the what. What are they doing? Why are they doing it? What is it going to get them? And then how are they— then you do the how. The how is always the second step. And then the last thing you do is pick a degree if required at all, because it's the most expensive thing that people will do.

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:30]:
And that, I think, really drives home here because the stats that they found in here was that only 13% of these kids feel like they know what they're doing when they graduate high school. But 62% of them are going to buy college degrees. That explains completely why there's such a huge failure. And the thing is, 13% of them are sure what they're going to do. A bunch of those kids are, I'm sure what I'm going to do. I'm going to go be a doctor. I'm going to go be a lawyer. I'm going to go be a nuclear physicist, which again, and they think that they're going to go do these things because they've had such a limited exposure to careers through the system.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:02]:
And then all of their energy and all their parents' energy has been spent prepping them to get into college instead of for the career that they're going to get afterwards. It's just, our whole system is bonkers. We have no career planning. What we have instead is college planning. And then all kids just get swept up into that. And then half of them are gonna get spit out the other end, not having gotten the result, feeling like they failed. And then parents feel like there's something wrong with their kids when in fact the thing that went wrong was way prior to this in high school when their kids did not know what they were doing or why. And then they put them in this position with no clear goal that was always gonna end badly for them.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:34]:
And it's not their fault. Truthfully.

Ryan Maruyama [00:42:36]:
This was exactly my life story. I graduated high school early and I went immediately to college. And the reason why was so that I could, you know, I'm Asian and I have an Asian upbringing. And so it very much go to college, make a lot of money somewhere in there, hopefully get a good job, but it really is go to college, get a good job, make a lot of money. But it was really just like, go to college, make a lot of money. Okay. How do we do that? I don't know. And so the ideas that we had was basically, I say this in the book, in The Degree-Free Way, but there was 3 industries that was my whole world of work.

Ryan Maruyama [00:43:14]:
It was doctor, lawyer, finance or banking or whatever. And so what I didn't go into the book with was my original thought was actually given to me by my grandfather. And, and my grandmother. And so the advice that he was giving me was very outdated. I mean, it was 60 years outdated because he was working from like his knowledge of the world. I mean, granted, he was a professional and everything like that. He was an orthopedic surgeon and then he did a bunch of expert witness stuff in the legal field. And so it's not like he did, he wasn't aware of those things and he knew a lot of people that were very, very successful.

Ryan Maruyama [00:43:54]:
I mean, he was successful in his own right. by any measure that you would say, but then he knew people that were very successful. And so he always compared his life to those people that were very successful. I mean, if you want to say wealthy, if you want to say that my grandfather did well, the other people were wealthy.

Hannah Maruyama [00:44:14]:
Mm-hmm.

Ryan Maruyama [00:44:14]:
The people that were wealthy, that was his yardstick. And so he wanted me to be wealthy. And so he didn't want me to make the same mistakes that he did. And He's like, okay, so what do I, what do I see with the people that are, that are wealthy? Well, they're either lawyers or they have MBAs. Like literally that was literally, that was the world of which he was operating from.

Hannah Maruyama [00:44:36]:
What's crazy is now half of MBAs have negative ROI. What a different world.

Ryan Maruyama [00:44:41]:
And so he was like, you should go to a program that has a JD, MBA, together in one. And so the plan was, and this was while I was still in high school, the plan was to graduate early so I can get out there and start my college career, get into college. To get into one of those JD/MBA programs, you usually need like 2 years of work or something like that. And I think now it's, it could be less depending on the program that you go to. I think they're more prevalent now. But back then they only had a few. And so go to work for a little bit and then go get JD/MBA, and then you can get a big job somewhere. That was literally the entire plan.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:24]:
And it felt so solid at the time. It literally felt so solid. How good is that plan? Like literally listening to that plan right now, that's actually like—

Hannah Maruyama [00:45:33]:
What a solid— I don't know if it's good, but it's definitely solid.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:36]:
If we didn't know what we know, because we do this for a living now.

Hannah Maruyama [00:45:38]:
It sounds so impressive and good.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:40]:
It sounds so impressive and it sounds so good.

Hannah Maruyama [00:45:41]:
That's what happens to things.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:42]:
It sounds so solid and it's like, uh, okay. But now knowing what we know, that is a horrible plan.

Hannah Maruyama [00:45:51]:
Yes.

Ryan Maruyama [00:45:52]:
What job in the middle here? Like literally what job are you gonna get in the middle there to impress people enough to get, to get it? Then why get it in the first place? Why are you gonna spend the next 6 years of your life?

Hannah Maruyama [00:46:05]:
Probably more than that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:46:05]:
Pursuing, no, pursuing admission into this thing that's going to take 2.5 to 3 years of your life. And then what are you going to do after that?

Hannah Maruyama [00:46:13]:
That requires those things.

Ryan Maruyama [00:46:15]:
Those things.

Hannah Maruyama [00:46:15]:
Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:46:16]:
And so now we have a 7-year span here that's going to cost 7 years of your life, arguably the most important years of your life here. You're going to, you're going to spend all of, all of that time, all of that energy there, not to mention all of the money that you're going to spend and all of the opportunity costs of lost wages that you could have been earning where your economic, like the, Your personal finance and your personal economics will be going the other way instead of spending money and not having a job, you would have a job and not be spending money. And so your life would look completely different. And so I see, I totally get how when your child and when young adults come with a plan that looks exactly like that, that was to me, at that time, that was incredibly well thought out. And to me now, trying to defend my, trying to defend my, you know, myself 15, 20 years ago.

Hannah Maruyama [00:47:13]:
Why would you question it?

Ryan Maruyama [00:47:13]:
Yeah. I mean, like, of course that's a pretty good plan, right? That's a pretty good plan. But now, now we know by what metric that's not a good plan, man. That's so ambiguous. Why are you doing those things? Like literally, why are you doing those things? And not to get like rah-rah, 'cause we don't get like rah-rah about it, but like, it kind of matters because obviously I didn't go that route. I didn't go that route. And it's because I didn't have the why. And not from a self-help why type of thing.

Ryan Maruyama [00:47:45]:
I literally didn't know.

Hannah Maruyama [00:47:47]:
What were you going to do with it?

Ryan Maruyama [00:47:48]:
Why?

Hannah Maruyama [00:47:49]:
For what?

Ryan Maruyama [00:47:49]:
I literally didn't know what the end goal was. I didn't have a clear vision of the future. And so I was paddling in this boat. I was doing, I was spending all my energy in this boat when I couldn't see where I was going. And I got burnt out by it. And so I stopped paddling and then I started sinking. And my life, I, there was an entire arc in there where I had to figure it out. I mean, like I had to figure it out.

Ryan Maruyama [00:48:21]:
And I mean, it's everything that we try to, you know, help young adults avoid now.

Hannah Maruyama [00:48:26]:
Yeah. I just see that so often and it's, it is so clearly the why, like it has not been thought through and there's not a clear reason why. And it's the other thing is that a lot of people, I think, put value statements. They're trying to evaluate people from a college lens, which I think is a fruitless effort that really benefits no one. Just because your child can do all of those things, can get into college, can buy all these degrees, why? Why? What is it for? And if they can't answer that question, it's not really going to help them. And that is not really a statement on your child. It's really a statement on the fact that like we as a society are not doing a good job helping young adults plan out what they want their futures to look like. And then what they must do to achieve those futures, whether that's business ownership or family being more family focused, or that is some like, you know, big consulting career.

Hannah Maruyama [00:49:12]:
It's, it's just so clear that the problem is starting way earlier than the transition out of high school. It's that kids do not know what they're aiming for, and then they do not know how to get it accurately because we don't have good resources. There's not enough boots on the ground for this. And a lot of the reason I think is because parents Do feel really underequipped to deal with it because the landscape has shifted so much. Many of them know that what they did was not the right thing, but that's kind of still the only resources available. And it's scary to try something else. But the thing is, and this is what I want to say to parents, is isn't it scary to leave it the way it is? Look at how badly it's going. Look at the kids around you coming home in debt and being at home at 25 years old, considering going into a master's degree program to try to do something impressive again.

Hannah Maruyama [00:49:57]:
To buy more paper because it didn't work the first time in the hopes it'll help them get a job. It's not gonna do that. It does not work anymore. And the thing is, if you're listening to this podcast, you know that already. Like, you know, it doesn't. That's why you're listening to us. I know that it feels really discouraging, but it's actually a really, it's good that we're, that these types of studies are coming out. It's good that we have gotten to, this is the root problem.

Hannah Maruyama [00:50:17]:
The lack of career navigation is the root of the problem. It's not college admissions.

Ryan Maruyama [00:50:22]:
It's not military. And before that, vocational creativity, to our credit.

Hannah Maruyama [00:50:26]:
Which is your credit really.

Ryan Maruyama [00:50:27]:
Which, yeah. Vocational creativity for those that know, don't know, I mean, it's exactly as it sounds, which is the problem is that young adults just don't know their options. I mean, that's it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:50:36]:
Which is what the study concluded as well.

Ryan Maruyama [00:50:38]:
Yeah. And we figured that out years ago.

Hannah Maruyama [00:50:41]:
Yeah. And that's why you, you start stretching that muscle as early as possible.

Ryan Maruyama [00:50:44]:
So if you're listening and you wanna try to avoid all of this for your young adult, you can go to degreefree.com/launch. And apply for your young adult there. Like I said before, we are doing— this is the first time I'm mentioning it publicly. We're mentioning it publicly. We are doing an open beta right now of the program. And so if you and your child were turned down at an earlier time because they were older than 20, we are— we have opened up the window for a very limited time, probably from 21 to 24. And if they are in that window and they need help, sign them up now because you probably will not have an opportunity to. Degreefree.com/launch.

Ryan Maruyama [00:51:26]:
Until next time, aloha.