Ask Ryan and Hannah: Vocational Creativity™ for Outdoor Jobs (DF#170)

Hannah Maruyama [00:00:00]:
For 12 years, usually starting in middle school, these kids are told the only way for them is to pay the man and go to college to buy a degree every single day. Every activity is channeling them towards picking a degree path. Every single thing that they do specifically designed for that. And the people who are subject to most of that are kids with straight A's because they know that colleges will screen for them. And so I think that this is just patently ridiculous.

Ryan Maruyama [00:00:32]:
Aloha folks, and welcome back to degree free. I am really excited to be back in the studio and I'm excited to have you folks back. This is our night studio that you and I are in, But anyway, I am really excited because we are doing a long awaited episode this week. We are doing ask Ryan and Hannah or degree free mailbag. Yeah. We're workshopping the name. Finally, we have these questions in our mailbag for a really long time and we are digging out one of them and we are going to talk about it right here. I'm super excited.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:05]:
And if you have a question that you want answered, you can go to ask.degreefree.co and you can ask us your question there. It is going to be in the form of a video. Those are best so that we can see your face and I'll show you why if you're watching on YouTube and if you're listening, you'll hear the question.

Hannah Maruyama [00:01:24]:
I'm really excited to answer these questions. So we're going to start with this question today and then everybody make sure you go and drop your question at the ask. Degreefree.co. That's where you should drop it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:01:34]:
Yes. And then it's on our link tree for everybody that follows us on TikTok. I think I should just put it on our website too. I hadn't really thought about that, but anyway, we are going to start with this format. This is still an experiment. I'm not exactly sure how it's going to look on video at the end and how it's going to look long term, but here we go. So let's get to our very first question.

Karen [00:01:56]:
Hi. My name is Karen, and I am a mom of 3. We live in Oakland, California. And my son in particular is very much loves the outdoors, has a wonderful memory for everything related to nature, but has a tremendous fear of school failure due to his learning differences. And I'm looking for ways that he can explore the outdoors, have a career in the outdoors without going to college and would love some help and advice.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:24]:
So that is Karen. And that was a great first question. We started here because we get this question probably the most or at least top five for sure.

Hannah Maruyama [00:02:35]:
Yeah. Or some variation of this question.

Ryan Maruyama [00:02:36]:
Right? Exactly. And we've done this on the podcast before and just for everybody, this is a good reminder of what it looks like. We don't suggest choosing by industry. We don't suggest choosing by interest. That is a very common pitfall that so many people get caught up in parents trying to help their kids. And then also job seekers thinking about for themselves. Oh, what do I enjoy doing? What do they enjoy doing? They really like to be outdoors, so they should go work outdoors. We find that you're starting off on the wrong foot.

Ryan Maruyama [00:03:07]:
If you look at the degree free way, there are a bunch of things that you have to go through in the needs and wants sections with your child. You have to go through money. You have to go through location. You have to go through schedule. You have to go through work environment. The last one is optional. Really. You shouldn't use it at all.

Ryan Maruyama [00:03:24]:
It's in the danger zone, as we've said before, and that is industry. And I would put industry right up against interest as well.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:32]:
And I think probably here a lot of people would go, is it outdoors work environment? And the answer is not really because work environment implies where you go into work. Outdoors is very general for that is more of an industry. If it's more into that category as opposed to work environment actually. Because work environment is more like I do field work. So I go from location to location or I go into an office or work hybrid. So I sometimes I work in office, sometimes I don't. I work with a large group of people. I work with a small group of people.

Hannah Maruyama [00:03:58]:
That's more work environment and outdoors is very specific. Karen from Oakland. I'm going to answer this question for you in the same way that Ryan's answering it, which is roll it back because while choosing based on interest, it's no wonder everyone does it. We all do it because it's the easiest thing for us to see. So we then tend to push our children into careers based on their interests, because it's the easiest thing for us to quantify and we can kind of see, oh, well, they like to be outside. So let's put them in a career in the outdoors. But what might be better because working in the outdoors isn't the same as being able to freely hike and explore in the outdoors. So those aren't really the same.

Hannah Maruyama [00:04:34]:
And so choosing by industry can force someone who loves the outdoors to not want to be outside in time that they have to themselves because they are outside exposed to the elements all the time. And that's depending on the type of work that they end up choosing. So figure out what your son needs to make, figure out location too. California is expensive. And so being able to find a job that pays his bill so he can stay near your family, if that's a priority to him, is going to be very important. And then location may be secondary to that. If location is first, then close behind that needs to be income probably for you folks. And then I would say after that, then you worry about work environment.

Hannah Maruyama [00:05:10]:
So who does he want to work around or possibly schedule? And this is where this matters because it might be schedule if he wants more time to hike or to be outside. That's where you have to go through with him and figure those things out, prioritize them, and then go look for jobs that fit those criteria. So that income or that location, then the schedule, and then the work environment. And then now that you have those things in order, then you go look for outside jobs that fit those things. Because that is a want. That is not a need. And because if he puts outdoors as his need, it may prohibit him from being able to live where he wants to live, have the type of schedule he wants to have, earn what he needs to earn to pay his bills and survive. And then also work in a work environment that he likes with other people or without, if that's something that he requires.

Ryan Maruyama [00:05:53]:
Hey there. I hope that you're loving this episode of the degree free podcast. We spend a ton of time every week creating this content you. So my only ask is you take a quick second to leave a review or thumbs up on whatever platform you're on. It's one of the best and easiest ways that you can support this podcast, and this simple action can help bring more people into the degree free community. At degree free, we wanna help as many people as we can thrive and succeed without needing a college degree. Your review will be a step in that direction. If you could do this small favor right now, pause this and leave a review.

Ryan Maruyama [00:06:24]:
It would truly mean the world to us. Thank you, and back to the show. The best way that we think about these needs is they are filters. Every one of these needs that you put down on your needs list, if you're thinking about what type of job should I help my young adult get into every one of those needs is just another filter. So you have a filter of right amount of income. So whether that's $50,000 a year, let's say so all of the possible jobs in the world go through that filter. And the only ones that go through are the ones that make $50,000 a year or more. And then there's another need, whatever that need might be.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:05]:
So let's just say location, Oakland, California. Now that you go through that filter again. K. Well, they need to be local to Oakland, California, and then a schedule 4 days a week, 5 days a week, weekends off. I have something going on on Monday Tuesday. And so I need to work the rest of the day so I can work on Saturdays Sundays. That's fine. And so that is another filter.

Ryan Maruyama [00:07:29]:
And the more needs that you have, the less jobs that are available there. Usually where we tell people to start is starting at income because income is fortunately or unfortunately, we are working. We are living in a capitalist society where we trade money for goods to live. That's just the way that the world works. So income is usually the number one thing. And depending on what the income needs are that can eliminate a lot of jobs. Let's say that you thought about industry first and say, oh, they wanted to work outdoors in the environment, things of that nature. And so when I put that hat on and I think about those types of things, and I think this is a lot of people.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:15]:
My mind goes immediately to jobs that are with the government park Rangers. You work with department of land and natural resources. What you're going to do, one of those types of jobs, you're going to do maybe a landscaper, those types of things. Typically those jobs, you don't make a lot of money.

Hannah Maruyama [00:08:32]:
Yeah. You might not make enough and buy a lot. What he means enough to pay to exist in California. Really a lot of them are government jobs. And so the advancement of pay is very structured and it's locked up behind time.

Ryan Maruyama [00:08:45]:
The reason why I'm thinking about those jobs first is because if you have a filter that is above all of those jobs, let's just say that you wanted to make a $100,000 a year. Now, a lot of those jobs that I just stated do not make it past the first filter. And so if that's the $100,000 we didn't exhaust any brain space on trying to think about outside jobs that are low paying. Now we're just thinking about, okay, how do I make a $100,000 being outside, whatever your needs are after that. Once again, it shouldn't be necessarily outside or shouldn't necessarily be in a certain industry, but the income really helps. It's a really effective filter.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:25]:
Yeah. Because you have to make sure you can pay your bills. Otherwise, why would you work? You're spending into the red. And this is something that it's not fun to talk about, but it's necessary to, because I think not nearly enough parents and their kids are concerned with how much money they're gonna make afterwards. And I say that because of the amount of people who say, oh, you know, I don't wanna make too much money. And I'm like, well, that's not really a concern that most adults have. That's just not really how it works. You really need to worry about that so that you can survive.

Hannah Maruyama [00:09:51]:
And then you're able to do more things because if your kids can pay enough money to put a roof over their head and clothes on their back and food in their mouth, then they gain more space, more time, more breathing room to pursue the things they love, to spend time with people, to gain more of their time back, to be able to build things they care about in the world, and to learn what they want to learn. And that is why that's so important.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:13]:
For those long time listeners and for those long time viewers, you know this already, we're a broken record. We're going to continue to be a broken record because the way that we teach it, this is how you should be looking for jobs. This is how you should help your young adult look for jobs. It's logical. It just makes sense. If you want something quick and effective, that is like if you don't want to be quick and effective, then you can just keep grasping and keep doing what you're doing. That's totally fine. But if you want to find out what your young adult goals are and then if you want to then find jobs and career paths that can help them live and achieve those goals, then the degree free way is the way it's going through and figuring out what they need and then going through the jobs that fulfill those needs.

Ryan Maruyama [00:10:54]:
But let's just assume that you've gone through all that. I did want to get to answer this question with a few job ideas. And on the other hand, for those that have bought the degree free way, they already know this. You don't know what you don't know. We need a bunch of vocational creativity here and that's what we're here for. We're here to give you an effective rubric and effective guide on how to go about choosing careers for your young adults and then for yourself. But then also we want to educate everybody about all the different types of jobs that are out there, which is why we have on all the guests to expose you to all of the different industries that are out there. So if you were just going to answer Karen's question just straight up without getting on our soapbox, give us some job ideas.

Hannah Maruyama [00:11:40]:
So my son is 19 and taking some time off of high school, and he wants to commit his life to science or a field research or working in the outdoors, but is unclear of how to do so without a college degree. So here are a few ideas for him off the top of my head. I would say permaculture design is a really good one. There's actually a certification for that nationally. And what that is is designing residential or public gardens and making sure that they're sustainable, making sure that there's some sort of irrigation set up that when it rains, that's able to route it around. It's very strategic. You have to know a lot about soil pH and nutrients and sunlight. Another one that I think would be really good is very straightforward.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:18]:
That also has a path of business ownership is arborist apprentice. You do not have to have a college degree to be an arborist apprentice. You find a licensed arborist and you can apprentice under them. And at that point, you can eventually gain enough hours. So you can take an exam and become one. Now that's just more plants and trees. I think underneath there too, there's also hydroponic techs that's growing more in California too. And there are actually companies that hire for that.

Hannah Maruyama [00:12:41]:
That's something you could look at locally, but it's probably more near the bay. Now, if you want to go more agricultural, you could probably go look for entry level work at a vineyard. That might be very interesting. It's definitely outdoors, has some plant components to it. Also something I've seen that I think is really cool and a really amazing way to work in industry and around outdoors in nature is salmon fishing boats. I think that's an amazing way for young men, especially in this age demographic to get some real work experience, do something cool, make some good money and get some experience working in an environment that's one, stunningly beautiful and then very cool. Another one that I think might be a little out of the box is fisheries. This is something that I've talked about before, because I feel very strongly about this, but a lot of people, when they say research or field work, what they're going to do is they're going to say, Oh, I want to work with fish.

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:27]:
And then they're going to go buy multiple college degrees. And then they're going to work for $40,000 possibly. And not on the high end, somewhere that they can barely afford to live. And instead of doing that, you should just go find your child an entry level job. You can find your son, help him research entry level jobs at fisheries where he's going to make $32,000 a year, but he can do that because he's 19 and get him some experience and then see if he likes that. If it's interesting to him. And those are just a few different options. I also know in California, they have fire watch.

Hannah Maruyama [00:13:57]:
That's something too that's seasonal work. It's not full time. Oftentimes those people have other jobs, but that's very solitary. So if he likes to be solitary, that would be good for him. And then obviously you have your usual park ranger, but those will require college degrees. And then anything working for the DNR is going to require college degrees as well. Oftentimes, unless it's something entry level like a field tech or some sort of basic maintenance tech. And then my last one for working outdoors would be a caretaker for a private estate.

Hannah Maruyama [00:14:27]:
And I actually would look on Craigslist or just online for open jobs for a caretaker for someone's home that has some grounds because you would be outside. That's your job. And then secondary to that would be a university. Look for colleges and state or county grounds that need groundskeepers. One of the funniest things about that is that I recently found a listing for a landscape architect, not a licensed landscape architect. That's different. There is a college degree required for that in all states, but Vermont and North Dakota, I think. But this job was paying more than what most of the graduates of the college were going to end up making.

Hannah Maruyama [00:15:04]:
And it was entry level. So that was a really good outdoor job as well. Those are my suggestions.

Ryan Maruyama [00:15:09]:
I wanted to talk a little bit about the landscaping, depending on where you live. Not that it can't be rural, but majority of the time when you're looking at landscaping, you're going to be talking about cities. So if he wants to be outdoors, but still live within a city or at least like a suburb, then landscaping is a good option. And just simply because the density of people, the more customers they have, the more jobs there is, and therefore they can have a thriving business and you can have work. The groundskeepers, I have a friend that is a groundskeeper for an estate and his needs for money is actually very, very little. And a lot of it has to do with the deal that he has with the groundskeeper of that estate. It's a very large estate in Hawaii and they have a bunch of different houses on the grounds. He, as part of his deal gets to live in one of the houses rent free.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:09]:
He's been there for almost 8 years now. He just got a raise to like $25 an hour. Now I think he was making 18, most of it or 15 for a good portion of it. Then he got up to 20 and then think he's at like 25 now because he has a bunch of people underneath him now, but it was able to slam his living expenses down to nothing.

Hannah Maruyama [00:16:30]:
Which in Hawaii is hard to do.

Ryan Maruyama [00:16:31]:
He didn't pay for rent. He didn't pay for his phone as far as needing income. He did do it that way. I remember when he talked to me before this was years before degree free and he was just like, should I take this job? And then I basically walked him through, like, I don't know, what do you need? We sat down and we did his expenses and we did his income and we matched it up against what he was currently making. He was a bartender at the time. He wanted to just change. He was over the bar scene. I think he was drinking a lot and the whole bar lifestyle it's all at night.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:03]:
He made good money, but the reason why he was concerned was because he was going from a bartender to a groundskeeper at this place. He was making more as a bartender than $15 an hour. So him and I had to go through all of his expenses and all of the budget and everything like that and be like, is this worth it? And for him, he was making less money, but it was what he wanted to do. So he was willing to take the pay cut for it. And it did meet his needs, even though he had to live a little bit smaller.

Hannah Maruyama [00:17:33]:
And later it met his family's needs too, which is cool.

Ryan Maruyama [00:17:36]:
Exactly. Long story short, Piso works there. He's got a family, he's got kids now and everything. It's worked out for him beyond imagination because he's actually just got upgraded into another house on the grounds. It's bigger than the place that we're in. And then the last one that I wanted to double click on was the agriculture one. Agriculture is a really good option for people that like to solve puzzles. If you want to solve a puzzle and just constantly be dealing with problems here, problems there, oh, we have to tweak this.

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:06]:
We have to tweak that. Oh, this is getting too expensive. Can we find a substitute? This broke down. How can we fix it? Are we going to buy a new one or are we going to buy a used one or are we just going to fix it? And there's always those types of problems in agriculture. And if your son, Karen wants to solve problems, that is a really good path to go into as well. And depending on where he goes in agriculture, he might not need to stay outdoors forever.

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:37]:
Yeah. Should he ever want to transition?

Ryan Maruyama [00:18:38]:
There's plenty of work that is in the office eventually. Granted, you're going to have to do a little bit of retooling and everything like that, but that's just like going through any career change as well. Career progression.

Hannah Maruyama [00:18:48]:
You're gonna have to learn more stuff. I feel like there is something here I want to pick out a little bit, which is the research or science. I feel like we've done a huge disservice to our country. By the way, we have cordoned off science in general, where it's only this thing where you're like running around with the case, taking soil samples and like that's science. So it's like, it's also science to observe the world around you, draw conclusions and fix problems in it exactly like you were saying. And I think we've glamorized to these young kids a lot. Oh, the STEM and science like, Oh, we're science. Like we're sitting in a marine biology lab, like taking the scales of the fish, we're running things in a centrifuge, and we're taking samples.

Hannah Maruyama [00:19:24]:
And I recently talked to a farmer who is from rural Indiana, and he was telling me how he can diagnose and treat his cows, correctly dose them, And then he's a grass fed farmer. Not only that, but he can heal them by feeding them certain things. He has his own machines and he runs scientific panels on them all the time. He takes blood samples, he makes hypotheses and draws conclusions. He changes their diet so that when he sends them to the processor, their composition of meat is different. He runs control samples from grocery store meat against his own meat. You can't tell me that man is not a scientist. He's more of a scientist than many of the scientists that have degrees that I've ever met.

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:04]:
He's degree free and listening to him speak about the passion with which he deals with his field of science, specifically beef and cattle is so interesting. And it just shows that there's science in all aspects of life. And you can find a practice of science in your own life, in your work, if you choose your work correctly.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:22]:
And the last thing I wanted to get into here, and this isn't necessarily to Karen, but this is to all parents that have children that have learning differences. I think when we are thinking about employing these young adults, and when we're thinking about these young adults going out on their own and trying to find jobs, how many times Hannah do we hear, oh, my son has a learning disability. What can they do?

Hannah Maruyama [00:20:48]:
I would say every third conversation is like that.

Ryan Maruyama [00:20:51]:
100%. It really is up there. And it's usually exactly like this, which is what industry should they go into? And then they have learning differences. They've learned disabilities, however they present it, or however they say it, what can they do? It's always the question. And what we found is asking that question like that isn't very useful. Here's what I mean. The way to think about this and the way that you and I think about this when we have people in the launch program is instead of thinking about what the disability is and then us drawing conclusions of what that young adult is therefore then able to do what type of work they can and can't do. We ask about what limitations that learning difference or that learning disability, or even if it is a disability disability, maybe they don't have like, Yeah.

Hannah Maruyama [00:21:44]:
If you're an amputee or a quadriplegic, maybe they can't walk or they're visually impaired deaf

Ryan Maruyama [00:21:49]:
or they clinically deaf, but they can hear above a certain decibel. And so instead of thinking of the diagnosis, you think one step further than that, And you think about the limitations that diagnosis has, or rather the presentation of that diagnosis. For example, let's just say ADHD. We get this one all the time. Oh, my son is ADHD. I don't know what to do. What kind of jobs can they do? And for us, when we think about that, I get overwhelmed because I'm just like, I don't know because I don't know what your son is capable of doing.

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:23]:
Or what you're going to think that he's capable of and limit him based on your interpretation of

Ryan Maruyama [00:22:28]:
it. I don't know what he's capable of doing. I don't know what he's not capable of doing. And so the next question that asks, what does ADHD mean? And that is a much better gauge. That is a much better question to be asking. What does it mean? How does it present? What are the limitations that this child has because of ADHD?

Hannah Maruyama [00:22:48]:
This really speaks, I think, to school failure, because she's talking about his school failure. I'm talking about the failure of schools. 1, I see a rash and people are gonna say, I'm talking out of turn, but this is what we do for a living. And we talk to these kids all day. I'm telling you right now, there is an over diagnosis of things. Anybody who is mildly inconvenient to the system, there's a label smacked on them and they're pushed to the back of the line. That's what happens. And so I see this time and time again.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:11]:
The dangerous thing about labeling your children by a label that the school has given them is that the schools are failures. And they're going to give your kids a label, and then you are going to use that label to limit your child before your child has even thought about what they need. Like your child has escaped school. He's 19. So he's free of this. Don't let it follow him. Rip the label off and really think about what he needs. And then think about, for him, what is he willing to do or able to do to learn? And that is different for every child, which is why parents have to do this.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:39]:
I'm sure there's multiple diagnoses because every single kid has multiple diagnoses these days.

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:44]:
So I did want to put a bow on what I was saying, which is talking about the limitations and specifically those limitations. Aren't what you as the parent think their limitations are. It's like their actual limitations.

Hannah Maruyama [00:23:57]:
Their limitations.

Ryan Maruyama [00:23:58]:
Yeah. Like what does ADHD mean?

Hannah Maruyama [00:24:01]:
Yeah. Because I see people say, oh, they can't sit still. I'm like, no, no, no. What you mean is they can't sit still in school. And I can't sit still in school. School is boring. School is useless for most of us. It doesn't teach very much useful information that's applicable to our real life.

Hannah Maruyama [00:24:14]:
And it makes it difficult to pay attention because it's not relevant. And if someone can't answer why people who are diagnosed with ADHD me, have trouble. We struggle to pay attention to something that no one can explain to me why I'm listening to this. And because of that, if you let that label follow you, and then you limit people buy it, you will never find out what they're capable of. Because you're saying, oh, well, they can't sit still. No, they probably can. If you find something that they're willing to learn that they know they need to learn and they want to learn because they need it to get the type of life they want to live and unlocking that motivation is the key to them succeeding.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:46]:
For me, the limitations are most easily identified. It's easy to talk about actually handicapped people. If you're a paraplegic, the limitation is you need to work in an ADA facility.

Hannah Maruyama [00:24:58]:
Or from home.

Ryan Maruyama [00:24:58]:
Which is an ADA facility, I'm assuming. You can get in and out. Yeah. Maybe it's not ADA, but I mean, like, you can get in and out of it.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:04]:
It's accessible.

Ryan Maruyama [00:25:04]:
Right. Exactly. That is a true limitation. Think about that limitation when you're thinking about what their limitations are because they're ADHD.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:12]:
I have a good story about this. Actually, I worked with a young man in the launch program who had, cerebral palsy, and so he did not have use of one of his arms and hadn't since he was a child. And one of the conversations he and I had were about his actual limitations because he would have been given a ton of them. And he was given a ton of them in school. I was like, can you type? I'll ask, can you type? And understanding that's a physical limitation. One of your arms, you can't type with. But he was working a physical job, which told me that he had the ability to do pretty much anything. But normally people would completely eliminate him from any physical jobs because they would just look at him and say, Oh, well, you can't.

Hannah Maruyama [00:25:46]:
No, but he could. He absolutely could. And so now we just go, all right, what do you think your needs are? What are you able to do? And then what are you interested enough to do? Because you need to do it because it'll get you what you want. And that unlocks a totally different horizon for them. And sorry, Karen, if it sounded like I took a tone there, it was just because I'm angry that your son felt school failure at all. Reading this is like reading one of our launch program applications. I can't even count the amount of times that I've read something that looks almost exactly like this.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:13]:
That is the way that we think about disabilities in general. We don't think about the diagnoses. We think about the limitations after that. Really sit down with them. If you and them can't think of Axsome Real, literally cannot do it. Limitations.

Hannah Maruyama [00:26:29]:
Then go for it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:29]:
When you do find those limitations, you put that on your needs list. So you need a work environment that allows people to sit down literally because you can't stand up. There you go. When you find those limitations, you put it on the needs list and then you're going to be able to find jobs that much quicker and it's gonna be that much more effective. So the

Karen [00:26:48]:
next thing that I wanted

Ryan Maruyama [00:26:49]:
to get into, this wasn't a question from ask.degreefree.co. I definitely suggest that everybody go there and ask their questions. But this was a question that we get a lot and I wrote a response to it and I figured I would answer it here on the podcast too. This is from Erin and Erin says, Hello, I see in the TikTok videos the workbooks are recommended for kids 60 to 20. She's talking about the degree free way, how to help your 16 to 20 year old build the life they want. You can go to degreefree.c04/book if you wanna get it. I have a middle school kid who has access to free concurrent enrollment at community college as well as exposure to some other interesting occupations through school. Would this material be appropriate to start with kiddo now? I wrote a longer email here, but I'm just gonna read the short answer that I gave Aaron, and I was very honest.

Ryan Maruyama [00:27:44]:
The short answer to Aaron's question of whether or not this would be appropriate for a middle schooler is no. The degree free way is not the right resource for a middle school child. The reason why we know this is because we used to work with middle school children.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:00]:
We tried. Yes. We did. We tested.

Ryan Maruyama [00:28:02]:
The way that we've come up with the methodologies within the degree free way is they're battle tested from our launch program. And we have done the heavy lifting so that you don't have to, all you have to do is buy this book right here and you go through it and your young adult, you'll clarify their needs, clarify their wants, and you can work through to get 3 jobs that fit those needs and wants. And then you'll figure out at the end whether or not you need to buy a college degree to get that job. We know that it works because we've done it. When we first started the launch program, we didn't know what we were doing. We had an idea of how to do it. We had the processes down because we've helped a bunch of people, but we didn't know what ages it was going to be for. And so we opened it up to everybody and through many, many tests, through literally working with middle school age children, we found that these methods are not for them.

Hannah Maruyama [00:28:59]:
They're too young. They don't have enough context in life before thinking enough to see what's ahead of them a little bit.

Karen [00:29:07]:
This is a good one I wanted

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:09]:
to say because obviously this child is

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:11]:
Advanced.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:12]:
Who has access to free concurrent enrollment at community college, as well as exposure to some other interesting occupations through school.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:18]:
Or Aaron just has him in a gangster school, which is also possible. Right.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:21]:
And that's great. But at the same time, the questions that we are asking are about your future life. And we are asking about those questions about you as a young adult, ready to make decisions and take action. Because you're going to have

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:35]:
to one way or another.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:36]:
We ask questions where they are going to need answers that are solid.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:40]:
Or somewhat directionally solid. Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:42]:
And middle schoolers, one of this is literally that we didn't work with this middle schooler.

Hannah Maruyama [00:29:47]:
Yet. He's in high school now. Okay.

Ryan Maruyama [00:29:49]:
So here's what happens. We ended up taking all these middle schoolers and we didn't get a good result. And we realized why aren't we getting a good result here? And it's because they're too young. So then we made an age limit and we tested that from 15, 14, and 16 was the youngest that we can take. So we met this lady at the time. She had a 14 year old and she was like, oh, same thing, same song. But this wasn't about the degree free way. She wanted him to be in the launch program.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:15]:
And we were like, woah, sure. We love money. Just like everybody else loves money. But we were like, no, no, no, no. We don't do that because I'm going to take your money and you're not going to get a good result out of this.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:25]:
Yeah. Because they're not ready for it yet.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:27]:
Exactly. When we said that she's like, yeah, you know what? Literally just last week he asked if whether or not he could kiss his girlfriend.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:35]:
Yeah. His first girlfriend. And we're like not quite ready yet.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:38]:
Not quite ready.

Hannah Maruyama [00:30:39]:
Not ready for these conversations yet. Exactly. He's got a lot on his mind. It's not this. I have thought about that a lot. Yeah, me too.

Ryan Maruyama [00:30:48]:
When thinking about the middle schoolers and younger, that is the reason why it's not is because literally we've tested. And the thing is you can go and buy it and test it with your middle schooler and yours might be different. But generally speaking,

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:04]:
We've found that it's most effective when it's used for the target age range. So that's on the cover.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:09]:
Exactly.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:09]:
Because we did try. Yeah.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:11]:
And we're currently working on more resources for younger children and older job seekers as well. Really stay tuned for those.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:21]:
Alright. I have a conspiracy theory, and I'm going to hit you with it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:24]:
Perfect. This is the segment. We put all of the good stuff in the front of the episode so we could get to your conspiracy theories.

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:31]:
Thank you. I think we should probably formalize the segment and just call it Hannah's conspiracy theories. So my conspiracy theory of the week, I have a friend who is at a top university.

Ryan Maruyama [00:31:41]:
What do you mean is at a top university?

Hannah Maruyama [00:31:43]:
She works there. She's employed at this university. So I have an inside source. This inside source does not have an NDA. And so the minute she leaves this university, she's going to come on this guest and do a tell all she already agreed to do that. But in the meantime, she just tells me things. And one of the things that she told me was that recently at this university, she's in marketing for the university. This is a very good contact that we have.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:05]:
And I was informed that there was a meeting and this meeting at this top university was the marketing team saying that they are going to have to try to tone down their rhetoric. This is almost a direct quote, tone down their rhetoric because they have to pull back in the young white men because they have alienated them with their campus culture and their faculty. But then as an aside further in this meeting was also just men in general. They are scaring young men away from going to college. Now what's funny about this is if you guys listen to us on the podcast, my distaste or distrust or professor Scott Galloway, who is a marketing professor from NYU has probably bled through. He's not my favorite person. And I think it's because he's very insincere in the way that he sells college to people. He's been running around on all the big podcasts, sounding the alarm on, oh no, the young men aren't going to college.

Hannah Maruyama [00:32:58]:
And that is because the universities are alienating them with the way that they treat them. And ironically enough, now they're trying to reel them back in because they need their money and they need their results because the results have nothing to do with colleges. And so as they've pushed away young men and certain demographics of young men who tend to be high achievers, they are now going, oh shoot, we kind of need them back. Otherwise the cracks are going to start to show and people are going to wonder what the value of this product.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:26]:
Let me try to make this clear. You are saying that the outcome of their product is their life. Yes. Right. That is the product.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:35]:
Yeah. Their employment, their income.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:37]:
Yes. And that is the outcome of the product that they're selling, which is their life. And right now, You are saying that the young white males and

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:46]:
just young men in general also

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:47]:
typically have better life outcomes as far as income and all that is concerned.

Hannah Maruyama [00:33:53]:
Yeah. Cause usually colleges green for them.

Ryan Maruyama [00:33:56]:
So, because they no longer have that demographic or they're suffering in that demographic, they are left with other demographics that with or without college you think would not do as well.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:08]:
I don't know about think I know about R and that's why they're trying to get this demographic back in. I'm sure that people can read into this as much as they want. I'm telling you, this is what I'm being told they're doing. They're like, Oh, shoot. We need those guys back because they tend to go in time. Also because men in general tend to pick higher paying jobs. And so most women buy more college degrees than men. And so as women do that and they get poor outcomes, it makes the university and the college look bad.

Hannah Maruyama [00:34:35]:
But really it's because of the choice of the jobs that the women are going to go into afterwards. Not because of the degrees they're buying, but women buy more degrees to go into lower paying field. They choose to do so. It's just choices. People

Ryan Maruyama [00:34:46]:
when given the advice, follow your passion. Women tend to pick fields that are lower paid and when told to follow the money, women tend to pick fields that are higher paid.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:00]:
Yes. Correct.

Ryan Maruyama [00:35:01]:
Whereas when men are told to follow your passion, they tend to still pick money or at least fields that get paid more than the fields that women typically go into.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:10]:
Correct. So in this university, it was like, oh, shoot, we need those guys back. And I noticed that when they released that there was a large drop in enrollment and these two things I didn't see connected until recently. And then I started seeing another person who was making the rounds that I'm about to go into. And I believe that they're being paid. I believe they're being paid to do it. I believe they're literally being paid by big academia, the same way that people are paid by big oil to go around and talk about how good everything is and there's no pollution and stuff like that. So I have noticed Destiny, who is a big streamer and also now I guess a political commentator on tour, shilling directionless student debt.

Hannah Maruyama [00:35:49]:
He is using every single myth in the book. Every single one. It's every single clip of him is him saying, Oh, people would buy college degrees better. He's using every single myth that you and I talk about on this podcast. He's using just general earnings. He's not factoring in wealth. He's not factoring in who colleges select for typically. And then he himself is degree free and he's built a massive streaming business and media business without buying a college degree.

Hannah Maruyama [00:36:16]:
And he himself is exactly one of the people who I've talked about where he didn't get white labeled by a college, but he was successful because of the 18 years preceding him. He did have a brief foray into college for music, which obviously didn't serve him at all. And then he ended up working and then he ended up streaming and making good money. But I believe very strongly because of the consistency of the points and the circuit that he is on and the reason that he has nothing to gain from it, that he's been paid to do it. And I suspect that that is my suspicion. And I'm saying that because I just saw that with this simultaneously going on with my friend saying that this big university, 1,000,000,000 of dollars at their disposal, 1,000,000,000. What's a few million to a streamer to go around and try to reach the demographic that is slipping through their grasp. How easy, what that made me do is made me look and see who else has been doing it because I very much suspect that is what's going on.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:05]:
And because they're trying to use the culture to scare these young men, to get them back, corral them back, put them back in line to sign on the dotted line because they need them to do that. And what I wanted to talk about before we get off is that he used Bill Gates as an example in this podcast. Oh yeah. People cite Bill Gates as an example of not needing to go to college. He's like Bill Gates. He's like any young person that had a portfolio of work would know that they didn't need to go to college. And that is patently false. The reason for that is because for 12 years, usually starting in middle school, these kids are told the only way for them is to pay the man and go to college to buy a degree every single day.

Hannah Maruyama [00:37:44]:
Every activity is channeling them towards picking a degree path. Every single thing that they do is specifically designed for that. And the people who are subject to most of that are kids with straight A's because they know that colleges will screen for them. And so I think that this is just patently ridiculous. And how do you know that? Because Bill Gates himself obviously didn't need to be there and he was there. Mark Zuckerberg didn't need to be there. And he was there. You see all of these big tech founders that went to school and they were like, wait, I don't need to be here.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:13]:
And then they left, but they went because they had been told they had to. Cause in his example, he says, none of them go, oh no, I need to buy a comp sci degree. I'm like, they literally all do that. All of them, every single one, all of your giant, giant highest value tech companies in our country have been built by people that fall into the exact example he's using and he's wrong. And this is the thing I wanted to talk about because in the launch program, you and I see these kids come in with 5.0 GPAs, which we laugh about, but they make those now for those of you that didn't know they have 5.0 GPAs now, but they come in with 5.0 GPAs, but they have been told that the only way for them to pass go is to go to college. That's all they can do. They have to do that. They're not allowed to do anything else.

Hannah Maruyama [00:38:52]:
And they have to ask for permission everywhere before they do that. And it's very rare that they do not do that. But many of these kids that have that portfolio of work still think they need to go to college Cause culture, every trusted adult around them, all their teachers and the guidance counselors and the school system they've been part of has been pushing them that way their entire lives. And so I just fundamentally reject. He knows that. That's the thing about him is he's fairly bright. And so he's aware of that. And that's why I suspect he's been paid to say otherwise.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:21]:
I totally hear what you're saying. And I love a good conspiracy theory. I want to present another possibility. Let's start from the beginning. Why is he out there?

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:31]:
Oh, because he's trying to get attention.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:32]:
And what is his company?

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:34]:
A media business that's built on attention.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:36]:
He is a media business.

Hannah Maruyama [00:39:37]:
Yes.

Ryan Maruyama [00:39:37]:
And so with media businesses, what is the product specifically your attention with him? He doesn't have a product, at least that I'm aware of that he sells or anything like that. And I'm just saying like subscribe to him on Twitch. The reason why he was subscribed to him on Twitch is because he's garnered your attention. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a product, but I don't think that's his main source of income either way. It could be possible that he said it one time and it got a lot of views. And then he said it again, and then it got a lot of views and then he said it again, and then it got more views. So he's let the audience dictate the content because for him, all he needs is views because that's what his business is. So let's just take an opposite example of this.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:23]:
Let's just talk about us because that's easy. Cause you and I know when we're thinking about this podcast, we know that this podcast isn't going to be the largest podcast in the world. It will never ever be the largest podcast in the world. And why is that? Well, our product isn't attention because we're not a media business. We sell a service and we sell a product. So we need your attention, but we don't need everyone attention. We just need the people that we services attention. This has happened to us.

Ryan Maruyama [00:40:55]:
Even if we get a video or a concept that gets 10 X, the amount of views that we normally get, if it's not directly related to our business, we don't do that content again because it doesn't matter. Our product isn't your attention. You're just listening to this. But like when I'm not getting paid for you to listen to this where with him, he is getting paid for you to listen to it. I'm not saying anything like directly paid and like what you're insinuating, but just by him going on all of these podcasts and all of these bigger media platforms, it just gives him more and more clout because his business is garnering attention. Like his product is your attention.

Hannah Maruyama [00:41:35]:
Just as it's equally as possible as what I'm talking about. But I've seen it in combination with several, what I can only call hit piece articles, which are saying, Oh, you'll die earlier if you don't buy a college degree. That one's funny. And then another one that says, If you don't buy a college degree, you won't have any friends. Literally, this is the titles of these articles. Big media companies and they're propaganda articles. And when you read them, you're just going, what is going on here? You know what I mean? They've got a 30 person study that says it's just ridiculous when you read them. And it's very clearly funded by somebody outside the company who's trying to push a very specific narrative.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:06]:
And I think it's the colleges because they are flailing. They're going, Oh, shit. We're losing the cultural zeitgeist. We're losing this push from parents. And their parents are going, Woah, woah, woah, what's going on here? And they're not paying for their kids to go anymore. They're not making them buy. And the colleges are panicking because they've been so comfortable and now they're going, shoot, what do we do? And if I was a college, I would pay somebody like Destiny to try to scare these young men. Because his audience is probably 98% young men in that demographic.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:35]:
I would pay him to scare them to go back. That's what I would do because it's easier because young men aren't reading these college hippies articles. Those are for the parents where if your kids don't buy a college degree, they'll die early. If your kids don't buy a college degree, they won't have friends. But you have destiny going around like you're going to be a failure, man, if you don't go. And that's how weak his argument is, is if you go, you'll make more money. That's how frail his argument is. And he doesn't usually structure his arguments that way, which is why I think he's getting paid.

Hannah Maruyama [00:42:59]:
Then I think he might even have talking points.

Ryan Maruyama [00:43:01]:
But what we know for sure is that at least one college is having these types of conversations in their marketing department, thinking about How

Hannah Maruyama [00:43:10]:
do we pull them back in?

Ryan Maruyama [00:43:11]:
Exactly. Wrap up an entire demographic of people back in because they're escaping. For 1, the thing that I want to push home here is if that's not literally not marketing, I don't know what is. And if that's not what businesses do, then I don't know what businesses do. And colleges are huge businesses. And this is how they get you to buy a college degree through marketing, just like any other business. And that is a really great place to end it. I hope you guys liked the ask Ryan and Hannah or ask degree free or degree free mailbag, whatever we're calling it.

Ryan Maruyama [00:43:47]:
But if you guys want to ask your question, go to ask.degreefree.co. You're going to be answering more of these as they come in. That was just the first of many, many, many. And thank you so much for listening. Drop us a 5 star review. Until next time, guys. Hello.